That's the way it was put to me recently as I got into a conversation with a friend about this book: 
I read this book a few weeks ago because I was interested in the premise: Jim, a pastor, takes his atheist friend, Matt Casper, to visit a bunch of churches and critique them (Matt Casper, by the way has visited my blog and commented). The book offered food for thought but the further I got in to it, the less interested I became. At times the two come off as the grumpy old guys from the Muppet Show...
They visit a church one time and then draw a bunch of conclusions based on a small sample size--a one-time experience. The interesting thing that my friend pointed out is that few churches, if any, operate under the premise that atheists are visiting our churches unaccompanied by a friend. That's the lens through which they seem to want to view these churches. The reality is that most of the churches they visited, along with NewPointe, aren't catering to or programming for a lone atheist that wanders into their buildings on Sunday. Most of us subscribe to the invest and invite strategy. Meaning, if you're visiting a church, you're likely coming with someone who's investing in you (because they care about you) and then they've invited you to come with them to church. The investor/inviter is the one who's responsible to help their guest navigate the experience. Yes, the church has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) feel welcome and comfortable at your church.
Casper writes about how, for instance, at Saddleback, he gained more insight and understanding from his conversation with Jim following the church service than anything that happened at church that day. EXACTLY! That's how it's supposed to work. It's called invest and invite.
Now, I won't go so far as to say that Jim and Casper are full of crap. They do offer some helpful insights and food for thought. I just think they need to remember that their approach and the lens through which they view our churches is very atypical. And obviously my friend does too.
Have you read the book? Your thougths? Am I full of crap?
11 comments:
I agree, I think if you take a friend to church(especially an unchurch friend) it would be your duty to invite them somewhere(out or home) to eat or meet to talk about what they just went through. I think that would be the right thing to do!! I brought my sister last week and she loved it. (We ate afterwards, and she is a Christian)
ohmigosh john bunn! you've just given me some insight into why church in the usa doesn't work for me - if i come to your church, it seems you're saying, you take no responsibility to welcome me, converse me, have the 'up-the-front' stuff engage me. and, for the most part, that's been my experience of church meetings in the usa - nice ice - and i HATE it!
thankfully there are pubs and lounge rooms and off the map live conferences where i can experience jesus' love in community.
i can't believe you're not REALLY embarrassed by your post. to me, you're just saying a whole lot that's wrong with churches - ie that people don't welcome and engage the thinking/questions/feeling of people visiting, and don't feel any sense of responsibility to (because it's the responsibility of 'the friend who brought them') COME ON!!!! at the church i went to in australia (which was by no means perfect!) people would quite often come in off the street, and be welcomed and conversationed on their first visit, leading to their embracing of the community over time.
I think Jim and Casper are full of brilliance, courage, insight and wisdom!
megs, thanks for your comment. Apparently you didn't read this portion of my post:
Yes, the church has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) feel welcome and comfortable at your church.
The church very clearly has responsibility to engage and welcome guests. And many of us need to do a much better job of it. My point is simply that Jim and Casper's visits are atypical.
We must be ready for people that "come in off the streets" but the reality is that most people in the U.S. are invited by friends and attend with them.
Oh...wait...that's Casper's story. He didn't wander in to those churches by himself. Interesting. He had a friend with him who could help him process the experience...what a great idea.
The reality is that most of the churches they visited, along with NewPointe, aren't catering to or programming for a lone atheist that wanders into their buildings on Sunday. Most of us subscribe to the invest and invite strategy. Meaning, if you're visiting a church, you're likely coming with someone who's investing in you (because they care about you) and then they've invited you to come with them to church.
...and you were too polite to say no. So you politely tolerate going to church with them and try not to wince too visibly every time someone up at the front says something so wrong about atheists they should be embarrassed - but aren't, probably because they don't hang out with atheists enough to know what atheists are really like.
Then afterwards you say something polite and vague to your friend in response to "What did you think?" You hope they never invite you back but try to think of some excuses just in case there is a 'next time'.
The investor/inviter is the one who's responsible to help their guest navigate the experience.
Why is church so incomprehensible to the uninitiated that they need a guide to navigate them through it?
Yes, the church has some responsibility but it's mainly the one who's invited the friend that's going to be able to help that person (even if they're an atheist) feel welcome and comfortable at your church.
Why?
Why are churches so unfriendly that the only hope of someone feeling welcome is if a friend brings them?
Helen. Thanks for your comments. All opinions are welcome here.
John,I'm curious as to how you know Jim and Casper's visits are "atypical"? How do you know/find out the beliefs and opinions and responses of those who walk in the door? It seems to me 'Jim and Casper go to church' is one great way to find insights along these lines.
Helen, your questions are great. I'd love to hear somebody in the church have a go at answering them? Anyone? Buller? John Bunn?
Thanks John. It's the same way on the blog I host Conversation at the Edge - all opinions are welcome. All I ask is that people are civil to one another (which I hope I was here - I realize I was on the 'edgy' side of civil)
Thanks Megs! I was hoping for answers too.
I found the book to be a signficant confirmation for me. I am sad to say it, but I can really relate to Casper. Not in the context of not being a person of faith, but having some of the same insights that he mentioned. I struggle in that my heart wants to embrace all that I see my home church pursuing, but I keep getting these "Casper-esque" flags popping up in my spirit. I have asked God over and over to "quell these concerns" but they have yet to cease. I'm praying.....I want to be an asset to the Body of Christ and not a burden. I really identified with the inner city church that the duo visited. I believe it was in Chicago. Bottom line..... I want to engage in positive dialogue and not just appear critical. Lord Jesus, what would you have us to do? I love the Lord and want to be obedient and one after His heart. I have been a member of NPCC for nearly a decade.
friends radio, a lot of Christians have said that Matt Casper's comments have struck a chord with them.
So the good news is, you're not alone.
We'd love to have you (or John) to post your thoughts about the book on our Jim and Casper feedback page.
(And I really am interested in answers to my questions - aren't there any takers?)
Okay...here are some thoughts.
Helen: If you've truly invested in someone and they are your friend (not a project) then they're going to trust you. Also, you're probably not going to be too polite to say no to them. My wife and I have been investing in a couple for nearly three years. We've invited them many times. And they've told us no more than once. They finally came to church with us a couple weeks ago. And they loved it (so did their kids). They would likely have never come on their own. Possible...and sure, it can happen, but more often than not people are coming with others who've invited them.
We go to great lengths to elimiate the "wince factor." Of the churches Jim and Casper visited, how many of the people up front made wrong or embarrassing statements about athiests (as you seem to assume happens in the average church)? I don't recall Jim or Casper mentioning anything about that.
There may be churches that screw this up royally on a regular basis...but not many of the ones visited in the book. Many of those churches' primary (not only but primary) strategy is invest and invite. So that's how we program and execute. And we work incredibly hard to create an environment where most people (even athiests) would be comfortable and not weirded out.
We certainly don't feel that church is so incomprehensible that the uninitiated need a guide. Of course we have to be prepared for that. It's just that our main strategy is Invest and Invite. So what should we do? Invest and invite and then leave them alone? Get 'em to church, turn 'em loose and say "Good luck. Meet you back here at noon."?
And again, it's not that our churches are so unfriendly that our only hope rests on those who bring people with them. I never even said that. In fact I clearly stated that the church DOES have responsibility in this area. I also said that there are things we can learn from Jim and Casper's visits...and that we all could do a better job. Did you miss that part?
Back to my original point: It just seemed like J&C came in as the peanut gallery looking for flaws (and when you're looking for flaws you'll find them...and we do need to find them and address them). It's just that their approach was not normal. Our primary target is not the cynical athiest who comes in as a researcher trying to poke holes in the way we do church.
Hardly any of the churches visited are catering to or programming for a lone athiest who comes by himself. Casper didn't even come by himself. And really, it doesnt' sound like he ever would...unless someone befriended him, engaged in spiritual conversations with him and then invited him. See where I'm coming from?
We could plan and program for an individual athiest that might wander in...but it wouldn't be the best use of our time or resources. Instead we want to help you invest in the people you care about (athiest or not) by creating relevant, creative enviroments that address everyday life issues. And we're going to do it so well that they'll want to come back. And you know what? They do. Amazing huh? Saddleback is flat-out gettin' done for the kingdom of God. So is Willow. So is Mars Hill...and Imago...and Mosiac.
We all have different strategies and approaches based on what we feel God has asked us to do. Do we always get it right? No. Can we improve? You bet. Can J&C's book help. Sure. We're learning all the time. And THE MAIN THING we want is to see people in right relationship with their Heavenly Father. I think we can all agree on that.
Thanks John - I appreciate you taking time to address my questions.
I understand that your church members and staff are focusing your time and energy in the ways you believe God wants you to.
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